Hello. Elston Gunn here.
In the first installment of our interview with Daniel Barber (HERE), he talked about meeting and working with Michael Caine, developing the HARRY BROWN script, and his thoughts on the criticisms of the reality of the film.
Here, he discusses Emily Mortimer's character, the language of the camera, his test screening experience and what's next for him.
[Elston Gunn]: The dynamic between Michael Caine and Emily Mortimer is interesting. Was her inspector character written as a woman from the beginning?
[Daniel Barber]: Yes, it was and what's interesting about her character is I was very interested in her character being a woman from middle class background, who wanted to do the right thing, but is sort of not comfortable in the situation she's put, ultimately, when she's actually put down working on the streets. It's not an environment that she's comfortable in, or knows how to deal with. So, that weakness was kind of interesting to work with. I think that most people would expect a character of that position in the film to be very strong, to work things out and “it's a woman so it must be a strong character because women should be strong.”
[EG]: She's great in it. Also, I thought it was interesting the camera work was mostly still throughout. It didn't feel like there was a lot of handheld going on.
[DB]: Absolutely. That was a very particular thing. I spoke to Martin and we devised a form for it and it was this… that in the beginning when the camera is with the kids, it is very live and moving like they are, but when it's with Harry, it's very static and very still, because he is. And the camera only begins to move as he begins to move as well. So, it's a very conscious thing. I'm really interested in the art of the camera telling a story. The script is important in telling the story, the acting is important, the locations, where you set it, but also the way you film something is so important - the language of the camera in telling a story.
And I really enjoy the fact that we did it as almost something that was anti what you'd expect to be this kind of film. You would expect it to be handheld and very sort of Paul Greengrass, but it is a complete reaction against that, really, because I think every story is different and it needs a different style or technique appropriated to it, cinematically, and I really love those challenges. I think, because I come from a commercial background, I'm used to giving every commercial a different look or style because every brand has a different look or a feel, or a different image. And so every story, I think, every film, should have its own particular image and its own different thing. You won't catch me doing this again. My next film will be very different to this.
[EG]: You mentioned TAXI DRIVER. Were there any films you screened for yourself and/or the crew for reference?
[DB]: No, not at all. We didn't screen anything and I'll tell you why... because we didn't have any money. [laughs] And you know the crew were friends of mine we all knew each other well. I mean, Martin [Ruhe, the director of photography] and I lived together while we made the film. He stayed in my house and we spent a lot of time together, but we didn't go and see any films at all, actually. We spoke about it a lot and we drew things out and we planned things together, but I promise you there is no element of any film we particularly looked at for any particular scene. Everything was born out of what our script was and how we were trying to answer this set of problems. The style that becomes appropriated to it, visually, we developed in the filming. "Oh, let's do a shot like this," or “let's spend more time here.” And it was made in the edit, as well. So, I think that was really interesting.
[EG]: You produced & directed commericals for 15 years, so I imagine you were confident with, at least, the technical aspects of filming your first feature. What was the biggest lesson you learned, though, in the entire process of making this film?
[DB]: I think it’s… I mean, yes, you're right, because of my background in commercials there's very little I haven't filmed, or techniques, and cameras. [I've] been up sort of the mountain and at the bottom of the sea, and filmed in the desert and this, that and the other, but I think at the end of the day the lesson for me will always be the lesson which is... the most important thing is the script and you must get that right. Then, the next important thing is getting great actors and allowing them the space to really work. Then, hopefully, being inspired and being able to offer them something to help them, you know, in that journey. There's no particular thing which happened in the making of the film. Yes, you know, in the first day or two I was a bit nervous working with Michael Caine but then after a while he made me feel very comfortable. And what's great about him is he comes to a scene with a view and how he'll do it and then he would say to me "Right, what do you think?" And he wants to know. And with him, you better have something to say. So, I think that the biggest thing I've learned is... if you got something to say, say it. Otherwise, shut the fuck up. [laughs]
[EG]: You mentioned not having a lot of money. Is it as hard to find funding in the UK for projects with smaller budgets right now as it is in the US?
[DB]: Oh, it's just horrendously difficult, yeah. So difficult. I mean, the producer Kris Thykier - honestly, I'm not just saying this - he did such an amazing job, because it was such a difficult thing to raise the money. Look, okay, it's a low budget British film and, yes, it's got Michael Caine in it. But, Michael Caine doesn’t really appeal to a younger audience so much, right? He’s not like Robert Pattinson, or Taylor Lautner, or Brad Pitt, or any of those guys you know he’s an older man and it’s the story of an older man and, by the way, it’s a fairly violent story and it’s going to be kind of no holds barred. That's difficult to raise money for. [laughs] It's not a fantastical chick flick sort of love story - guy meets girl, they didn’t like each other, then they fell in love. It's not a rom com. I mean, HARRY BROWN is not a rom com, is it?
[EG]: No. That’s very true.
[DB]: It could've been great, if it was, though.
[EG]: I know you detest comparisons to DEATH WISH. I've also read GRAN TORINO mentioned a couple of times, which deals with similar themes but goes in a different direction - could make an interesting double feature. However, I do want to say, when I saw Neil Jordan's THE BRAVE ONE with Jodie Foster a couple of years ago, which was similar territory, the audience reactions to her violent actions were interesting. They were really cheering and applauding her blowing these guys away and I'm curious if you've been seeing the same thing with HARRY BROWN.
[DB]: It's really interesting you should say that because one of the first times I saw the film was in one of those test screenings. It was fascinating - first of all, I'd never been to anything like that before - and suddenly there's this core cinema audience. They selected the audience to be a typical first-week audience, which is new to me, so there was a lot of younger people there - sort of 18 to 24 year old kind of thing. And then there were a few 24 to 34 year olds. All that kind of selection thing. We had this area in the cinema where all the people who worked on the film were going to sit and I said, "I don't really want to sit there. I'd just like to sit where I usually sit in the cinema," which is sort of a third of the way from the back in the kind of middle. And they said, "Oh, that's fine just don't tell anyone who you are. You mustn't screw up the process."
So, I sat down in the audience. I was next to a load of people and it was the most fascinating experience. I mean, for start, I was so aware of people talking during the film. Conversations about "oh, I fucking hate that bloke, he's such a cunt, why's he doing that," to the guy behind me saying to his girlfriend, "will you just shut the fuck up I'm trying to watch this fucking film." Just all these conversations going on. Maybe it was because it was my film, but I was so heightened and aware of it all. Then, I became aware of people, like, enjoying some of the violence that was going on, and really getting off on it, and cheering in a kind of way, which is not a typical British audience thing to do, and at times I felt uncomfortable. Because they were young guys and girls sitting near me and they were really enjoying some of the nastier moments - the kids beating each other up and whatever.
And I was thinking, "Well, my God, that's horrendous." It was very interesting how they were when Harry gets his revenge and gets back at these kids, but, at the end, they all got it. I sat there in the audience and I couldn't resist... at the end, I turned to these four or five guys, who were sitting next to me literally, and I said, "What do you reckon? What do you reckon?"
They just looked at me and said, "That was fucking amazing." [laughs]
These are young guys, they don't know who I am, they don't give a shit, to be quite frank. But it was an amazingly positive response to the film. It got an eighty percent positive response, or something, from the audience in that screening. And I sat there with Zygi Kamasa - he's the head of Lionsgate in England - and Kris the producer, and the editor, and I can't remember who else. Zygi just turned to me and said, "This is an amazing result, Daniel. You don't realize how good this is."
And I said, "Well, what happens usually?"
He said, "Usually, they tear it apart." [laughs] He said, "This is an amazing response and I'm going to say to you now that you can go off and finish this film and i'm not going to tell you to do anything."
[EG]: That's encouraging.
[DB]: I'll tell you what was interesting, though. There were a couple of points in the film where the audience laughed at what Harry was doing - where he's moving like an old man and he wasn't running like a young man. People laughed at a couple of points and I didn't feel comfortable so I changed those points in the edit. I didn't feel it was appropriate at that point. That was a very cruel laugh they were giving, because they were laughing at an old man moving, honestly, like an old man, which is not really very funny. If you're a bit sick or not very nice, you might find it amusing, and that's a hard thing to say. But you know I think most people get it.
After the film, they selected forty people and they sat them at the front of the cinema anf there's a guy and he asked questions to that select audience. He sort of says, "Who liked the film? Who didn't like the film? Why did you like it? Do you think it's too violent?"
All these different questions. And what was amazing is it was half women and half men and he asked these girls - this group of women, sort of 23 or 24 - and he said, "do you think the film is too violent?"
And they said to him, "Well, it is violent, but you needed to be violent to understand why he would then go on to do what he does. And also, that's the way it is today. It is very violent and so we feel it's kind of accurate."
That was amazing because you certainly begin to realize that the film you make, that you hope will work, that you hope will be popular, is speaking to people. That was the most wonderful thing and I know that may sound a bit base to you, but I want to make films that speak to people and make them think about things and aren't just like chewing gum for their eyes. I want it to be interesting, I want it to stay with people. Some of the nice things people have said to me is, "I went to see your film. I mean, my God, it was tough. It was a really tough film, but it stayed with me. I thought about it two days later and i'm still thinking about what was going on."
I read this really interesting thing - where some of my friends have been really sweet and they send me all the articles that they read - and it was written by a guy in England - a journalist, actually - who went to see the film with his girlfriend. And then afterwards, they walked to their car in the car park and drove home. He was saying, "I went to this film and when I was walking back to my car at night I was feeling a bit nervous, you know."
He said, "we got to the car and then we were driving home, and as we were driving home me and my girlfriend were talking about the film. We were just discussing it, saying, is this an accurate reflection of our society, is this where we're going, or is this where we are and does this go on. We drove home, we ran into the corner of our street to park in front of our house. And as we drove into the street, there was a gang of youths in the streets beating up a couple - a man and a woman - brutally, in the middle of the road. You know," he said, "that was my front door step."
So, he said, it's going on all the time. But so much of it is not reported, or gets pooh-poohed by middle class intelligentsia journalists, who write for THE GUARDIAN or THE INDEPENDENT, who don't live in the real world, who say it's not happening.
[EG]: So, do you know what you're working on next?
[DB]: [laughs] Well, I'm working on a film with Kris Thykier at the moment and it's a very different piece. It's called DEVOTCHKA and it's a woman from Russia and it's a really interesting film. The main character is a woman in the film and I don’t want to say too much because I’ll probably get told off, if I say too much. But it's a very thought-provoking piece, quite powerful. There will be quite a bit of action in it, as well, so that's what I'm working on with him at the moment and reading a lot - reading what's out there. I've had a lot of offers to get in on some American films, but nothing's sort of happened with that firmly yet. But I feel very optimistic. I really love what I do and I’m not going to panic about it because with HARRY BROWN everything fell into place. And I believe that, if I work hard enough, if I'm lucky, then it will happen again. In the meantime, I'm making some commercials and, thankfully, making a bit of money. So, that's great you know.
[EG]: You're still going to do that in between films.
[DB]: Yeah, absolutely, because commercials is a great training ground. I get to practice with all the latest toys and I get to travel the world. I'd just done a commercial for DHL and I was in Spain, China and Germany shooting that. About a couple of months ago, I was in Los Angeles shooting a couple of commercials for Infinity for America. So, yeah, I mean my love is storytelling and film, but you know, until I’m Steven Spielberg, Martin Scorsese or Paul Greengrass, I have to keep doing my day job as well.
HARRY BROWN opens today in select cities across the US.
Elston Gunn
elstongunn@hotmail.com
http://www.myspace.com/elstongunnaicn
