Hey, everyone. "Moriarty" here with some Rumblings From The Lab.
Two columns full of @$$holes this week? Is it Christmas?!
Take it away, guys, with your bad selves:
The biggest comic book event of the summer is upon us. No, it’s not Ron Zimmerman’s annual bath, but the release of The Fantastic Four 9 Cent Adventure! That’s right, in an effort to get new people reading comics in general, and Fantastic Four in particular, they’re offering a regular issue of FF for just 9 cents, making it the cheapest Marvel comic EVER (not counting back issue copies of Planet Terry).
Well, we @$$holes can’t let a highly-publicized event like this go unnoticed, and we wanted to see what comic fans from all walks of life (namely, us) thought of this comic. So we pooled our pennies, grabbed some copies, and then gathered ‘round the pentagram… uh, rountable at our island headquarters to discuss the FF, and what effect this promotion, and the ensuing relaunch by Mark Waid and Mike Weiringo, will have on the World’s Greatest Comic Magazine!
And, because I had nothing better to do than spend 12 hours sifting through the transcripts of our drunken ramblings and carving out an article, you get to join in!
The players:
Village Idiot (31) Eskimo, San Diego.
Ambush Bug (16) Accountant, Joliet.
Sleazy G (29) Hairstylist, Chicago.
Lizzybeth (22) Whaler, Hartford
Vroom Socko (25), Interpretive Dancer, Spokane
Superninja (26), Ninja, The Shadows
Jon Quixote (33), Martyr, Moose Jaw
Buzz Maverik (69), Drifter, no fixed address
YOU GUYS LOOK LIKE YOU HAVE A LOT TO SAY. WHO WANTS TO GO FIRST?
BUG: I'd like to start out by saying that the cover art makes Johnny Storm look like he's got a scorching case of herpes. And where the hell was Dr. Doom?
UMM, OKAY. AT 9 CENTS AN ISSUE, MARVEL OBVIOUSLY WANTS TO PUT THIS BOOK IN THE HANDS OF NEW READERS…AND THEN KEEP THEM. WILL IT WORK?
BUZZ: Well, it might have been nine cents for everybody else, but I shoplifted mine.
BUG: The book did a good job of introducing this family of "Imaginauts" to new readers who may be otherwise occupied with reading about Rapist Hulks, Abusive Giant Men, Spider-Girlfriend Death alternate endings and Teen Sidekick satire. But, while they may not mind tossing out a dime for this issue, there wasn't anything new established that may make these new comic fans pick up the next regularly priced issue.
VROOM: This book was everything that the 10 cent Batman was not. That book told us about who Batman was and why. The FF book showed us, and that makes all the difference. Also, there's no cliffhanger ending tying into a six-month storyline carrying through seven different titles. This will probably result in more people actually wanting to pick up the book.
JQ: No. If this book was intended to draw in the Ultimate crowd, it will fail. But no matter what Marvel does, they will fail. The people who buy Spawn and Authority type comics exclusively are not, by and large, the people who will buy Fantastic Four.
But, will this book draw in the average old-school comic buyer who has dropped FF? I say yes. I'll be buying issue #61, and I'll bet a lot of other people who don't normally buy Fantastic Four, but DO already buy comics will give the series a shot as well. This book won't get people who didn't at least already like the FF to buy their comic, but it will get people who want to like them to buy it.
LIZZY: I don't read mainstream superheroes much anymore, but I did when I was younger and I think that's exactly the audience this comic is aimed at. It does a pretty good job of introducing the characters, which is good for me since I know nothing about the FF.
The problem with this "introduction" style, it's a nice handshake for new readers who are coming on board anyway, but it's not going to convince anyone who has no interest. I really thought when I was reading this, "hey, this might be nice if I was looking for this sort of thing." But it didn't try all that hard to convince me that I SHOULD be looking for this kind of comic, it didn't wow me, and that's the only way you're going to draw fresh readers.
OKAY GUYS, AS A PROMOTION, YOU SEEM TO FEEL IT WAS HIT AND MISS. HOW ABOUT AS A COMIC?
V.I.: I thought it was a pretty good "mission statement" issue. We get to see who these characters are, what they do, and what they believe in. It wasn't spectacularly exciting, but it had some nice moments along the way. And it was well worth the nine cents I would have paid for it if I hadn't stolen my issue too.
BUG: My initial reaction to the issue was that it was pretty good. Not great, but pretty good. All of the right things are in place. Johnny and Ben don't get along. Johnny's an airhead. Sue is sexy as hell. Reed is doing his best Ward Cleaver of the Negative Zone impression. That said, there wasn't much I hadn't seen before. The fight between Ben and Johnny has been done so often that it is boring now. I know the two argue, but they are grown men. To have them bicker like ten year olds and then be chastised like they were six year olds by Reed while driving is just too much.
BUZZ: I liked this look at Reed Richards' motivations and I enjoyed the spoof on comic book relaunches (you just know the suits at Marvel missed the irony but they'd never admit it). But, the opening "family vacation" style argument really did not work for me. Too sit-comy.
SLEAZY: I can't tell if you guys are complete hypocrites, or if you're just blinded by your admiration of Waid's past work. Sure, it had its moments, and I'll grant that I will buy the first half dozen issues to see how it pans out, just like I mistakenly did the first couple of years of this post-"Heroes Reborn" reboot.
But are you guys really incapable of seeing this is ULTIMATES LITE? How about the way you savage Millar for untimely pop-culture references, like Freddie Prinze Jr., that will be stale by winter, and then don't say a word about Waid referring half a dozen times to the fact that Johnny just broke up with Jennifer "I'm in a Marvel movie this winter" Garner? How about the silly pseudoscientific Ellis/Millar/Morrison claptrap like "macroatoms" and "datavores"?
JQ: Now, while I'll admit that the pop culture peppering in comic books has grown wearisome, if there is a book that should use that technique it is the FF. These guys are celebrities, and are a firm part of celebrity culture in the Marvel U. It's not unprecedented for Johnny to date an actress.
Complaining about the science? You're missing the point, Sleazy. The FF needs wonderment of the nature of the macroatoms. The problem is when that sort of science fiction becomes the crux of the book, instead of adding to the milieu. But Waid used it to flavor the book, and the plot NEVER turned on the regulating of tachyons or something like that. My GOD man, did you even think about the book or did you just skim it, see the words 'davatores' and 'Jennifer Garner' and then react?
SLEAZY: Oh, gee, SORRY. I guess I should have proved I didn't "skim" the book by also pointing out that ONCE AGAIN we have Howard Fucking Stern's name rammed down our throats in a Marvel monthly, in the same breath as Danny Bonaduce. They're shameless starfuckers.
VROOM: Can I just say something?
SLEAZY & JQ: NO!!!
VROOM: Ironically, you two are just as bad as Johnny and Ben in this issue.
V.I.: Sleazy, let's not confuse @$$holes. I don't object to ULTIMATES because Millar uses Freddie Prinze Jr. references. That's Corm. I object to ULTIMATES because it feels like an ugly drag with people I don't like. This FF was not an ugly drag. It was a fairly light survey of the team that established who the group is, and yes Bug, that included telling you things you already know.
SUPERNINJA: I agree with Sleazy. Good ideas, poor execution. After reading this issue, the only thing that interested me in reading it further was seeing where Johnny and Ben had run off to at the end.
BUG: And it needed some Dr. Doom.
HOW DID WAID HANDLE THESE CHARACTERS?
BUZZ: I like some of what Waid is doing with the Thing, but very few people portray Grimm the way I would like (I won't say "the right way"). Ben Grimm was a test pilot. That means he's the elite of the elite. He'd very likely have a doctorate in astro-physics and might even have a better understanding of engineering than an egghead like Reed. Of course, he'd have a wild, highly aggressive hotshot side too. He'd be a decorated officer, and probably a combat veteran. He wouldn't have a "backseat" argument with the Torch.
VROOM: I want to talk about what Waid has done with Reed. Let me say that I'm not a big FF fan, and I've never really thought much of Mr. Fantastic. But the last three pages of this book made Reed... they made Reed. I'm putting Fantastic Four on my pull list, and it's due to those last three pages.
BUZZ: Sleazy may not have liked the scientific references, but stuff like "macroatoms" and "davatores" are very important to The F.F. Somebody will say, "No, character is what's important to the F.F.,” but references to the scientific hoohah is a giant part of Reed's character and the character of the book.
BUG: Exactly. Reed can go on and on about some scientific gizmo as long as Ben is there saying something like "Yeah whatever, Stretcho. Just point me in the right direction for some clobberin'."
JQ: Waid writes Johnny well, but a bit too juvenile. He doesn't really seem to get Sue. He has an interesting take on Grimm, one that is more notable for its subtle characterizations than anything else. But Waid wrote a GREAT Reed Richards, and for the first time in forever, he was the most interesting character. Most people would list Reed as their least favorite FF'er, which is probably why he's always getting killed off, but, at least for this issue, Waid made him the best. Which was awesome.
And while the bickering between Johnny and Ben is played out, and I’d rather seem their relationship resemble pranking friends than bratty siblings, I have to say that their last scene in the book was as funny a panel as I’ve read in a comic all year and exactly the sort of hi-jinks I need to see in the FF. If Waid persists in cramming them into the “kids of the family” archetype, they shouldn’t be bratty little kids so much as they should be naughty little kids.
BUZZ: Like every writer that comes aboard, I'm sure Waid has said something like, "I'm gonna establish 'em as Sue, Reed, Ben and Johnny, a family, not The Invisible Girl, Mr. Fantastic, The Thing and The Torch, a superhero team." But I felt that he clearly got the superhero aspects better than the human aspects. For example, the Mad Thinker conversation. Since when is the Torch an airhead? A hothead, yes. The kind of guy who would only read ULTIMATE books, yes. But not an airhead.
JQ: I didn't see Airhead. I saw young, and there's a difference. Just because he talked in an Amy Heckerling vernacular doesn't make him dumb.
Perhaps the problem is that Waid is restoring the original versions of the characters at the expense of the character development that has gone on for the past 40 years. Of course, it's these original versions that were most popular, and might be the key to attracting new readers. But does Waid burn the old readers by restoring the archetypes? I guess only time will tell. To me, there was a lot more to like about the characters than there was to dislike. I had fun with them...especially as the book progressed.
BUG: But what about Doom?
OKAY, LET’S GIVE WAID A BREAK AND MOVE ON TO MIKE WEIRINGO. WHEN YOU REVIEWED FF#59, JQ, YOU WERE PRETTY HARD ON THE OLD ART TEAM. WHAT DID YOU THINK ABOUT THE ART HERE?
JQ: I loved the art here. About as much improvement between this issue and the previous one as there is between The Last Supper and The Buddy Christ. It was fun, high-energy, consistent, and all the characters all looked sooooo cool.
BUZZ: I'm not a fan of this style of art. Yes, there is room for a little cartoonishness and a lot of exaggeration in the F.F., but this looked a little too Saturday morning for me. I got used to it, but I don't want to have to get used to comic book art. I want to enjoy it, be wowed by it and savor it.
SLEAZY: I can understand Buzz's objection that the art was a little too cartoony. I think it did a good job of lending the book a light feel, though. I especially enjoyed seeing the panels detailing their origins. Although updated versions, the clearly drew very strongly from the original forty-year-old images they were referencing. I loved the "gamma rays" and the way the still look more like solid rods, just like in the original story.
V.I.: I was happy with his work. Sure, it's a tad on the cartoony side, but not so much that I feel like I'm reading a comic about cartoons and not real people.
BUG: But what about Doom?
IT SEEMS THAT, ASIDE FROM SOME MINOR CRITICISMS, MOST OF YOU ENJOYED THE COMIC. YET YOU ALSO SEEM TO FEEL IT WILL FAIL AS A STUNT TO GAIN NEW READERS. IS THE FANTASTIC FOUR CONSIGNED TO A LIMITED, AGING FANBASE, OR IS THERE ANYTHING MARVEL COULD DO IN ORDER TO BOOST THEIR POPULARITY ON A MORE PERMANENT BASIS?
SUPERNINJA: FF is one of the few comics that I think could stand to be gimmicky. Waid had some pretty good ideas in this issue. The comparison to the Adams Family has some interesting connotations. What if these guys are all a bit on the eccentric side? They could certainly turn that all the way up to 11. Waid has proven in the pages of Ruse that he can write eccentrics entertainingly.
BUG: The Fantastic Four will never be X-Men. The reason why X-Men are so popular is that it appeals to themes of being an outsider. At least it did through the 70's-90's. Kids like that. They think it's cool and can relate to those themes.
Since FF is a book that centers a lot on family, it isn't looked at as such a cool theme. Pre and post adolescents don't really want to read about family because they are trying to get away from them at the time, so FF, as long as it is centering on the family, will not be tops in the teen market.
SLEAZY: Good point. In fact, it's now clear: Move FF to Marvel Knights. Make their costumes black, not blue, and latex, not spandex. Make them hang out with bikers and banger wannabes. More hipster slang, more piercings, less "family" BS. I want them to rebel against anything and everything.
Watch sales skyrocket.
Where's my check, Jemass?
JQ: It seems that the FF loses its appeal as its readership gets older. I think it has broad appeal to children and adults, but isn’t hip or nihilistic or violent enough to appeal to the teenagers who buy Ultimates or other popular comics.
BUG: Say we started collecting when we were pre teens or new teens. FF was cool with its big family and their arguments and their team adventures. But the appeal fades.
We move on out into the real world and form groups of our own, outside of our families. This is more like the themes in X-MEN. Outcasts who think they are all alone in the world have a place to call home. It's a family of sorts, but one not put together by blood. It is brought together by common interests and concerns. That's why one may move from liking FF to the X-Men in their socially formative years.
After a while, the teens grow up and may feel the need to start a family of their own. Family isn't such a four letter word anymore and settling down starts looking pretty good. These readers are the FF's bread and butter. So it may be a tough job for Marvel to strike the fancy of the younger readers out there simply because the theme of family doesn't appeal to that crowd. I include myself in that crowd and I find the FF only slightly appealing, but growing in appeal as I get older.
SLEAZY: Frankly, I don't think the FF lost its appeal as I got older. It's simply coincidental that the book has sucked really hard for the last 20 years, and I've gotten older during that same timeframe. It's been consistently mediocre for a very long time, and seems incapable of pulling out of a sucking inter-dimensional vortex of suck. I hope it'll change, and I'll give this Waid guy a chance because I WANT to like this book, but I have a history of buying FF for a few years and then dropping it because they just can't get it together.
BUZZ: I watched an episode of Jimmy Neutron: Boy Genius and he saved the day when the microchip he put in his pants went nuts and tried to take over the world. When Jimmy felt like a hero, his girlfriend pointed out that it was his stupid fault everything happened in the first place. This is Reed Richards. Waid is right. The F.F. aren't superheroes. Most of their adventures should center around them fixing things that are their own stupid faults in the first place.
LIZZY: FF doesn't seem to have the metaphorical connection, or if it does, it isn't played up. Books like Batman and Daredevil are really about crime, a very real topic for people everywhere. X-men is pretty blatantly metaphorical (sometimes ridiculously so) with the equal-rights theme and various other social issues. This doesn't necessarily make a good superhero comic, but it often makes a successful one. Readers who identify with the ethos seem to be more loyal than people following a character or artist.
BUG: But what about Doom?
SIGH. OKAY. WHAT ABOUT DOOM?
BUG: I'm sure Waid has something big planned for him and doesn't want to touch on it until the cast is established, but how can one establish the status quo and talk about the essence of the the FF without even mentioning the fifth member, Doctor Doom?
SLEAZY: Doom is important, but, Christ, they shouldn't drag him out right away. Build some anticipation, some excitement, some sense of drama. Overuse him and he loses his impact.
JQ: Yeah, I have to agree with Sleazy on this one. Fuck Doom! You don't want Lex Luthor in every issue of Superman and you don't want The Joker in every issue of Batman, so why the fuck does Doom have to be here? And, to tell you the truth, I’m a little tired of Doom vs. The FF stories. Doom’s a fascinating character in his own right, and I’d be more interested in seeing him in other books like Iron Man or Agent X right now.
BUZZ: Doom is waaaaaaay overused. Sleazy once said something about hoping the F.F. never leave Earth again (a sentiment I completely agree with; and I am sick of the Negative Zone, too), I would be happy if the F.F. didn't run into Doom for a year or so.
BUG: You guys are assholes. I just wanted a glimpse of what Waid has planned for him. I like the self contained issue, but had the book been peppered with teasers of future storylines, it may entice more people to buy future issues.
OKAY, FINAL THOUGHTS?
V.I.: I haven't really read FANTASTIC FOUR since 1982. Does Waid say *anything* new in the book? Is the "Adventurers, not superhero crimefighters" a new spin? I think he made reference to that being a new focus, or at least newly verbalized focus, in an interview.
JQ: I think the 'new' thing that Waid says in the book is not that the FF are celebrities, but that they NEED their celebrity. While I had a lot of fun reading the entire book, it was the last few pages that knocked my socks off, and ensured that I would come back for issue #61.
SLEAZY: The book has potential, and Waid can be a good writer. However, he can also be a mediocre writer, and there are already a half-dozen missteps in these 22 pages. I'll come back and see if it gets any better, but it may not if he doesn't get over his rather wordy case of Claremontitis reeeeal quick. It's been dragging the book down for five years now. Less empty nattering, less smarmy sex talk, less attempts by a pudgy white dude in his forties to write rap lyrics. More focus on a clean family book that readers of all ages can enjoy, with lots of fun and action and exploration and a family full of tension that always pulls together in a pinch.
BUZZ: Overall, a good issue and a good start for Waid. The art is fine, but it is not the style I like, which is my problem and not the fault of the artist. I would say that Waid did an equal amount of things right and an equal amount of things wrong, but this still puts this book ahead of most of the stuff published these days.
BUG: This issue had just about everything I needed to see in an FF comic. The art matched the tone of the story. The story wasn't bogged down with exposition. The characters were made interesting again (especially Reed). Even though I still think Doom should have played a tiny role in the issue, it did a good job of introducing the team to a bunch of people who already knew them and maybe a few people who didn't. I got my nine cents worth and I'll be back next month to see what Waid has up his sleeve.
Holy cow. That was mammoth. Nice work, guys.
"Moriarty" out.
